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 Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...

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Joy
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PostSubject: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:26 am

...that is the question. The Bible is full of female prophetesses and yet it says women should not speak in church. This never made sense to me. I thought that perhaps something was going on with the women at the Church in Corinth and Paul felt it necessary to silence them for that reason.

This morning I noticed that in the same letter where Paul says women should not speak he also addresses modesty for women who prophesy or pray in church. I had never noticed that before. (1 Cor 11:15 & 14:34)...written in the same letter to the same people. I finally get it. 'Prophesy' and 'speak' are not the same word, not viewed the same & have different rules for use in the church. I may not understand fully the speaking part, but I most assuredly get the prophesy part. Women with the gift of prophecy are not to be silent but are to use the gift God gave them for the edification of the church, just like all the spiritual gifts.

That was so encouraging to me that I had to share it. Smile
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dogsoldier0513
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:54 am

I was raised in The Church of Christ. Fortunately, I have 'seen the light' and no longer attend what I now consider to be a 'cult'. Having said that, let me ask this question: If God is 'no respecter of persons', then WHY NOT give women a voice in church?
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:21 am

There is so much on that subject, dogsoldier. What I was taught growing up is not actually what scripture says.

On many subjects, verses were taken out of context as well as other verses on the subject completely disregarded in order for what I was being taught to be true.

I've been thinking on what Paul had to say in 1st Corinthians. You know how women are much more verbal than men? I think that's what Paul is addressing. Let's face it. We ladies can talk nonstop about dang near anything. I think he is saying that on one day a week, the Sabbath, women should direct their speech to prayer and edification of the church. This for us would serve to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. That's the only way I can make sense of the two directives anyway. Oh, btw, I gave the wrong verse in my first post...that should have said 1 Cor 11:5. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:39 pm

From as young as I can remember, when I was a member of the CoC, I was taught that '....women should be seen and not heard'. The CoC extends this belief/practice into the work force, as well. It is especially so in CoC-run schools and universities. Within the CoC, a woman's viewpoint, education, experience, etc carries very little weight among her male peers, especially the 'educated' professionals.
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Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:54 am

That's really sad. I don't think I would make it very long in that environment. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:25 am

Neither of us would. I am usually silent be can become vocal if some deranged ***********preacher starts his ********* of telling me that I have no right to speak in his ********** church! LOL

If it is a sin to speak, then Joyce Meyers and others like her have brought a lot of people to God who will be turned away because it wasn't the right 'gender' of the speaker.

I argued this with BG at the TVT a lot in the old days. He said women could teach but not preach. Splitting hairs I think.
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dogsoldier0513
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:55 am

I have heard, from several sources, that King James 'hated women', and so as not to 'upset/offend' him, women's roles in Biblical history/events were 'heavily edited' when the KIng James version of the Bible was translated.
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:24 am

Not just hated women, but loved men, ummmm really loved men.

http://rictornorton.co.uk/reviews/young.htm

Long live Queen James
A review of King James and the History of Homosexuality by Michael B. Young
(New York University Press, 2000)

King James I & VI (1566–1625) has long been seen as one of the great queens of history, sometimes dismissed as a wanton fool, sometimes praised for his “gay pride”. When the Privy Council rebuked him for kissing and fondling his favourite George Villiers so openly in public, James defended himself with the words “Christ had his John, and I have my George.”

James had indiscreet relations with men from his youth. His contemporaries recognized not only that he loved men, but that he actively disliked women. They recognized that “his persistent involvement with other males was damaging his marriage” to Queen Anne. The increasingly bad relations between James and his Parliament were due not simply to his reckless extravagance, but also to their homophobia. They objected to his personal behaviour, particularly to his wanton behaviour with his circle of favourites. The arrival of his boyfriend Robert Carr as Gentlemen of the Bedchamber in 1607, for example, also marked the separation of James and Queen Anne. Razz
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Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:34 am

Yep. When I see people treating the KJV as the only version worthy to be read, I am always tempted to tell them all about King James. I'm also tempted to ask them if they are aware that Jesus didn't speak English. *in my Master Yoda voice* The original, KJV is not. Razz
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lmm
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:42 am

He didn't speak ENGLISH?????????????????

Blaspheme.

Of course He did, the British English with perfect diction. Giggle

And he had blue eyes and pale skin, and perfect teeth.

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Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:08 am

...and effeminate because as we all know, carpenters are known for their scrawny physiques. Oh wait...

I swear, if I could paint, my first portrait would be of an authentic looking middle eastern carpenter with "no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him" enjoying a good hearty laugh with us.
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Firenze
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:56 pm

dogsoldier0513 wrote:
From as young as I can remember, when I was a member of the CoC, I was taught that '....women should be seen and not heard'. The CoC extends this belief/practice into the work force, as well. It is especially so in CoC-run schools and universities. Within the CoC, a woman's viewpoint, education, experience, etc carries very little weight among her male peers, especially the 'educated' professionals.

I've never attended a church school or college, so I can't comment on that, but as for business, I've never seen that. And as most should know, there are two kinds of churches of Christ--Institutional and Non-Institutional. The Non-Institutional seem to oppose everything. I don't worship at one of those.

I in no way see how it could be considered a cult since there are no kidnappings, demands for money, etc. All congregations are autonomous and there may be some that do odd things. I'm sure they're out there.

What I have seen is a lot of church members leave because they do no wish to obey Matt. 19. That's their choice.
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lmm
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:37 am

I agree with your cult definition. The atheists always say all religion is a cult but to me, if you have secret meetings, secret initiations, are required to pay to attend, must sign over possessions to the 'church' and never allow any outsiders to witness a 'sermon', it's a cult..
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:04 am

I contend that the CoC, as we know it in Alabama and the rest of the USA::

* The CoC disapproves of any association with any other churches. When was the last time you heard of a CoC and sau, a Baptist church, joining together in a community project, etc?

* A current 'movement' among some CoCs in Mississippi and Tennessee has congregations forming 'secret groups' within their own congregations. Participants of these 'groups' are forbidden to discuss anything that happens within saif groupd among other church members.

* A blatant contempt for women persists, especialy in institutions of 'higher learning'. Women of academia are shunned when opportunties for advancement arise. Women are taught to believe that ONLY THE MAN has the RIGHT to make decisions affecting the household. CoC wives are to be totally SUBMISSIVE in areas of marriage.

* On more than a few occassions, CoC preachers have urged me to disobey federal law. In 1979 I was 'encouraged' by a CoC preacher to refain for signing up for the Selective Services Act, in clear violation of federal law.

* And the biggie: From birth, CoC members are INDOCTRINATED into believeing that ONLY CoC members will go to Heaven.

*
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:45 pm

And you've never heard odd things from "Baptists" or "Methodists"?

I know a Baptist preacher, he may be deceased now, who teaches/taught no divorce for ANY reason. I know some Methodist who aren't even sure of an afterlife.

One "problem" with the Church of Christ is that anyone can put up a sign that says CoC and no one can do anything about it. You can bet if Uno put up a sign that read "Southern Baptist," a lawyer would be sending him a letter. Autonomy has its price.

I don't know why any minister told you to disobey a law unless he felt the draft violated God's law. I do not feel that way and I've never heard anyone in the church preach against our military.

My take is that nothing is perfect, but I'm going with the one that teaches the most Biblically accurate doctrine.
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Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:13 am

True, Firenze. I think what is taught varies per congregation or individual church. That's true of all denominations. When I was growing up, we moved several times and attended different churches...as an adult, same thing. They were all quite different, from what constitutes church clothes to interpretation of scripture to how much money should be spent on a building to women's roles in the church, so on and so forth. I know that Crosspoint COC has used several bible studies where the teacher in the videos is Southern Baptist. I worked with a family who attended Sherrod Ave COC and we all felt we'd see each other in heaven. Perhaps these differences do not just vary per church but also with the feelings and attitudes of each person. I feel strongly that denominational boundaries are falling away. I hear people of all denominations acknowledge that denominations are not in scripture and that in God's eyes, we are THE church period.
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dogsoldier0513
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:28 pm

I currently attend the Methodist Church. I have experienced NOTHING among the Methodists that comes anywhere CLOSE to what I experienced while growing up in the CoC, with regards to an attempt to control EVERY ASPECT of my daily life. I will NEVER attend another CoC.
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:23 pm

Raised Presbyterian, attended Baptist, Methodist and a few Catholic services.

I'll stick with me, the Bible, and a good chair.
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:28 am

I grew up CoC too. I won't step foot in another one unless someone is getting married or buried.

There are many encounters between women and Jesus recorded. He never treated them unkindly, disrespectfully, or with contempt. The adulteress who was about to be stoned, the woman at the well, the woman who washed His feet, and the poor widow who gave all she could are a few examples.

I think that some people and churches take a few verses out of context as justification to treat women as subservient, which is wrong. They're quick to quote the instruction for wives to submit to their husbands, but the skip the part about husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Then, we have a clear definition of what love is. Love is patient, kind, slow to anger, does not dishonor, and so on.

So for me, it all boils down to what would Jesus do? Did He tell all of his followers to spread His word or just men? I think if a woman is called to speak and teach, she should follow that calling.

Just my $0.02.
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PostSubject: Re: Women in Church - To speak or not to speak...   Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:53 pm

I completely agree.

I love this site.
http://bible.cc/1_peter/3-7.htm

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Ephesians 5:28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Ephesians 5:33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Colossians 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them
.
1 Thessalonians 4:4 that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable,

1 Peter 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

<< 1 Peter 3:7 >>
Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Glad you are here Nash.
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