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 The Brooks Lions will pray group

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PostSubject: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:39 am

Don't know if any of you have heard about a Mr Green filing suit to stop prayer at Brooks ball games but he has.Question can this newly formed "Brooks Lions will pray continue to have prayer at ball-games? Has this not happened at other schools? I,m all for prayer at games,but the law of the land is "supposed" to rule.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:49 am

To be honest, this is always a difficult one for me. I wouldn't like it if some other religion prayed, chanted, sang (whatever they might do) to their god before my kids' or grandkid's ballgames. However, since I am a believer, I also know how helpful prayer is before doing anything. It's a conundrum for the thinking Christian. We understand his complaint, the quite valid place from which it comes, but also understand that inviting God in is always better than showing him the door.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:46 am

I agree. It is a tough one. As a citizen I know that my rights end where yours begin. But a few questions for the fun of it.

A.) Has another religious group asked permission to pray or a non-religious group asked for a moment of silence.
B.) Can anyone give me the cite for the statutue of the U.S.C that makes it unlawful to pray at school events........anyone???
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:34 pm

Granted, I've only dug into it so far and have farther to go, but so far I've not run across the law that forbids prayer at a school event, Ubu. I will dig more later...wasted the day and not much of it left. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:14 pm

If i wanted to attend a sporting event, and knew beforehand they would be doing something prior to the beginning of the event i didn't agree with/objected to, i would have enough sense to wait until the objectionable part was over before i showed up, instead of being pompous and thinking i was so special i could dictate what *I* wanted them to do.

if you don't like it, don't go where they do it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:42 pm

Puf wrote:
If i wanted to attend a sporting event, and knew beforehand they would be doing something prior to the beginning of the event i didn't agree with/objected to, i would have enough sense to wait until the objectionable part was over before i showed up, instead of being pompous and thinking i was so special i could dictate what *I* wanted them to do.

if you don't like it, don't go where they do it.

Can I get an AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My thoughts exactly. I wonder if they said a prayer in the locker room before the game, is that a violation? What if one of the players said a prayer for his team? Can they ask Santa Claus to help them?

After arguing with atheists for a week, I really don't give a ****. Ustink
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:45 pm

The way I look at it, it may be wrong or illegal for a school official to lead or dictate that the group
follow the prayer, but if a guest were allowed to pray for the safety and welfare of all involved , I see
nothing wrong with it.
With this said if some other religion or group were to ask for there own recognition they should be allotted
their time also.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:59 am

LOL......don't waste your time looking for a "law" Joy. It does not exist............

What does exist is an opinion of SCOTUS.......... you can read all about it here http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html

I believe every case heard by SCOTUS with respect to schools and prayer is linked here. You can read the transcripts and the opinion of SCOTUS.......

I posed that simply because the "foes" (for lack of a better term) keep claiming "it's against the law" .......no..............not really. It's a matter of the Constitution together with the 14th amendment, AND its application by the Supreme Court. I really hee hawed over someone that was questioning the intellligence of people that are in favor of prayer in schools and then claiming "it's against State law".......realllyyyyyyyyyyy, mind showing me that "law"..........Remember, prior to the 14th amendment, States could pretty much do what they wanted. Read some of the original states charters and constitution and you will find religious references.

Most "foes" will claim that you can not pray in school because you accept Federal Funds..........duh........now that's stupid. Where does the funds come from? Us, the citizens of the state.........It's the application of the 14th amendment coupled with the Constitution:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

Please don't think that I do not see the Constitution as the "Supreme Law of the Land". I do.............my argument is that prior to the passage of the 14th amendment, states were free to do as they say fit and long as it did not violate the Constitution. Remember the language "Congress shall make no law......." Congress.........not the states Congress. The states, again, were free to do as they pleased. Didn't like this state........MOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

But then came the 14th amendment and the 20th century and things changed LOL


Again, my rights end where yours begin. I keep going back to a statement that Beternu made one day when we were debating the historical aspect of prayer. He had empathy for the Jewish students that he went to school with that had to sit in silence while a prayer was said to start his school day. Even though he and I agreed on the principle of prayer in school, his statement hit me like a sledgehammer.

Every American should read the opinion of SCOTUS from "Engel V. Vitale. Find it here http://supreme.justia.com/us/370/421/case.html

What I am concerned with is:

A.) Has anyone been discriminated against.
B.) Has anyone asked to recite a prayer of their choice and been denied
C.) Did you approach the School first before filing a complaint? This is the biggie to me..........

Read also the opinion of the trial court to which Engel was remanded at the same link.......but I will pull this much from it for your review:

"The exact provision to be made is a matter for decision by the board, rather than the court, within the framework of constitutional requirements. Within that framework would fall a provision that prayer participants proceed to a common assembly while nonparticipants attend other rooms, or that nonparticipants be permitted to arrive at school a few minutes late or to attend separate opening exercises, or any other method which treats with equality both participants and nonparticipants."

Remember any law forbidding prayer would also be against the Constitution....you know that part about "the free exercise thereof". I believe even some of our atheist friends would take exception to that........Uno comes to mind specifically.

One final point: The "foes" should always remember when they start questioning the intellligence of others that:

A.) The establishment clause is contained in the First Amendment
B.) States were free to do as they saw fit until the 14th amendment
C.) The Constituiton can be amended ANYTIME
D.) The majority has no problem with prayer.
E.) The majority of Christians understand the dangers associated with permitting prayer in schools.

JMHO...............................

Respectfully submitted


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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:56 pm

A most informative post Ubu! cheers cheers cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:53 pm

Yes, it's more correct to say it's against the current interpretation of the law. I wish there had not been so much bad language directed at Jeremy Green and other atheists on the FB page.

BTW, an old "friend" of ours is naming the names of business owners who are atheists and encouraging boycotts. He even went back three or so years ago to an atheist's post concerning Mars Hill Bible School. I remember giving that person the dickens over it, but later we "kissed and made up."

I hope the group can unite to do something positive and legal...
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:22 pm

Firenze wrote:
Yes, it's more correct to say it's against the current interpretation of the law. I wish there had not been so much bad language directed at Jeremy Green and other atheists on the FB page.

BTW, an old "friend" of ours is naming the names of business owners who are atheists and encouraging boycotts. He even went back three or so years ago to an atheist's post concerning Mars Hill Bible School. I remember giving that person the dickens over it, but later we "kissed and made up."

I hope the group can unite to do something positive and legal...
The group had good intentions at the beginning but has been poorly moderated. They were probably over whelmed. I am disappointed in the groups efforts to this point. But,... you knew there had to be a but, atheists like Jim Fisher, Papa Tim and Rick Wiggins along with others just went to the Brooks page to stir up trouble and spread their brand of gospel. They had no business joining. I'm really close to deleting the whole bunch from my list. I know this will be an unpopular post,.... personally, I don't care.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:44 pm

I don't know the whole story or anything about a Brooks page, but I'm a little confused by the need to start anything since this man got his way. Is that not enough for them?

I hope anyone who continues to antagonize these folks realizes that their efforts will serve to strengthen the Christian community, increase their numbers (the complacent will no longer be complacent) and deepen their faith. That's the outcome I've always seen when opposition occurs. Just saying. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:48 pm

Firenze wrote:
BTW, an old "friend" of ours is naming the names of business owners who are atheists and encouraging boycotts. He even went back three or so years ago to an atheist's post concerning Mars Hill Bible School.

What in the world? I assume this is at TVT? This thing is getting out of hand. They need a mediator on both sides to ask people to cool their jets. I think the Superindent made a serious mistake by not instituting a moment of silence.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:07 pm

I shared with Joy in a PM a few months ago that I have found a church that I can finally call home. Sunday our Pastor's message was about being the type of Christian that when you are gone you are missed for your works and the life that you led. He tied it in with Peter's "raising" of Dorcas as recited in ACTS.

He made several points about God fearing people turning others off about our faith because of their negative nature. We should not meet non-belevers with anger of hate, but rather with love and compassion.

On the way to the game Friday night the car load of kids I had started talking about what was going on. They were very upset with Mr. Green and his actions. It gave me the chance to share with them what our pastor had stressed to us Sunday and to remind them not to hate Mr. Green. We need to include him in our prayers, not ostracize (sp?) him.

I have read a lot of the posts on the FB page and can't help but wonder at the mindset of some of the people and what they are protraying as Christianity.........

@Joy, his "agenda" is straight from the "suggested" format from the Alabama High School Athletic Association. Note, he did not specifically say "no moment of silence" or at least the copy of his letter that have does not. I kinda follow the rule that "if it is not specifically proscribed............ Giggle
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:51 pm

Good job, Ubu...that's a lesson to all of us.

I don't know this fellow's motives, but I do know that God loves him as much as he loves those raking him over the coals...so who are we to not love him, too? You can't love and spew hate at the same time, can't.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:58 am

No, Joy, our old friend was using his real name on the FB page. He went into a lot of detail about certain atheists. I've always had friends in all walks of life, but I agree with OB that it was not in the best taste to stir things up on the FB page. Neither were some of the "Christian's" remarks in the best of taste. I guess it was a draw.
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PostSubject: Re: The Brooks Lions will pray group   Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:49 am

That was brilliant. Grown adults acting that way in a public setting where anyone, including their children, could see it. Gee, maybe their kids can follow their example and never mature as well. What goes wrong in the minds of people who believe that anyone who disagrees with them is ignorant and worthy of insult? Perhaps you have to be an imbecile yourself to go there...or need to see a psychiatrist.
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