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Joy
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 9:33 am

I didn't draw a different conclusion than you regarding government assistance. You assumed I did. Wink I agree some people need assistance due to circumstances beyond their control. Whether or not it's the government's job to do so is debatable. I too do not mind my tax dollars helping those people. However, that doesn't make anything I said untrue.
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 10:20 am

Hmm, I really do see what you mean, and on some topics I think that would work wonderfully. Is my car door open or closed? Does trickle-down economics work? We can agree on something perhaps if we both see the car and the door or perhaps if we both research the history of trickle-down economics willing to accept whatever we find. Is there a God? Is being a Republican, Democrat, or Independent the most logical or "best" choice? Does any of that matter in the long run? Not sure that one would end up being answered or the same set of facts that we do know as humans would be interpreted the same way by both of us even if we are being honest. We might both conclude we aren't sure based on facts known at this time or that for some one conclusion worked better than than another...I don't know, but I think there are areas where it wouldn't take long and areas where it would take a lifetime, or we would just have to agree to disagree, since honesty isn't the same as truth.

There are some topics I really have intellectually researched for years and come to conclusions that I seriously think are intellectually honest. But you most likely think you have done the same thing, and many other people would say the same. So then what happens if we come to different conclusions? Are some of us lying or not self-aware, or can there be more than one way to interpret data? I could give you a list of reasons for this and you could give me one for that, but in the long run you have to interpret it your way with your brain and I have to do that my way with mine. Eliminating all bias is a trick for sure...scientists really try and devote their lives to it, but look at how many arguments we have going on in the world? Climate change? Politics, religion, lifestyles, the value of psychiatry, etc., and we can all pull study results and prove our point. It gets complicated, and the human psyche has trouble setting aside interpretations...and then what do we do with conclusions that are opposite of what we base our lives upon?

If our conclusions proved that it would be logical to do something I really felt strongly was morally wrong, I still wouldn't do it anyway, since part of being human is making choices based on what we are willing to do or not do to others. Anyway, I am rambling now, but I think your idea of intellectual honesty is really awesome, but aside from looking at something that is or is not (like the car door open or not), I'm not sure that we would come to the same conclusions over time necessarily. We might agree that xyz made sense logically, but it still might not be the "right" or logical choice for us personally, so only logical in a general sense. If we are being absolutists we would be stuck with, "so does that mean it is logical or not since it is for you and not for me?", and where do we go from there? It would depend on the topic and the people involved I think, and our sense of self-awareness, too, where we ended up.

I guess I am the, "If you ask I will show you what facts or ideas I based my conclusions upon and will listen and consider what facts you bring to show me", but then you do as you feel right and I do as I feel right and we can hopefully enjoy each other's company whether we agreed at the end or not Smile I "know" that spicy foods have health benefits in general, but not for me, so I will stay away from them and let others enjoy them. I choose not to eat meat, but I'm not going to try to convince you not to eat it. My kids asked me why, I told them, and they eat some sometimes and don't often as well. They know how to cook and eat well whether they use meat or not, so I will let them choose whether they want to eat it along the way or not. I don't believe in God, but if you do and we aren't hurting each other with our actions based on those beliefs, than why try to convince me I am wrong or me convince you that you are wrong? Guess I'm no fun in debates Giggle


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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 10:23 am

Joy wrote:
I didn't draw a different conclusion than you regarding government assistance. You assumed I did. Wink I agree some people need assistance due to circumstances beyond their control. Whether or not it's the government's job to do so is debatable. I too do not mind my tax dollars helping those people. However, that doesn't make anything I said untrue.

Hmm...it did seem that way from what I read in your post about government help, but apparently I misinterpreted your meaning. I took the words literally I guess and didn't get the meanings behind them Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 11:25 am

Let me put it this way and it will likely make what I am saying easier to swallow. There are some subjects where the two might decide the honest answer is "we don't know" or "we have no concrete evidence to form an irrefutable conclusion on this subject". In that case, each individual has choices. I thought of three, but there may be more.

1. They can set aside the subject, leave the door open until new evidence presents itself, but are basically able to live their life without an answer to that question.
2. They can close the door forever on this subject & refuse to address it again...however, this makes them no longer capable of intellectual honesty and ability to use reason, at least on this subject.
3. They can choose to embrace a possible conclusion and see where it leads them.

Sometimes the third choice will end unsatisfactorily and sometimes it will lead them to truth through personal experience or experimentation. If it takes place in a lab, it might even lead to a cure for cancer. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 12:09 pm

Joy wrote:
Let me put it this way and it will likely make what I am saying easier to swallow. There are some subjects where the two might decide the honest answer is "we don't know" or "we have no concrete evidence to form an irrefutable conclusion on this subject". In that case, each individual has choices. I thought of three, but there may be more.

1. They can set aside the subject, leave the door open until new evidence presents itself, but are basically able to live their life without an answer to that question.
2. They can close the door forever on this subject & refuse to address it again...however, this makes them no longer capable of intellectual honesty and ability to use reason, at least on this subject.
3. They can choose to embrace a possible conclusion and see where it leads them.

Sometimes the third choice will end unsatisfactorily and sometimes it will lead them to truth through personal experience or experimentation. If it takes place in a lab, it might even lead to a cure for cancer. Very Happy

Those options and your first statement do seem reasonable to me. I would say on the second one it may be simply that the person seriously dislikes discussing the subject or realizes the discussion will not go anywhere further with that person, so it may be a logical decision to refuse to discuss it. For instance, if the other person isn't able to discuss the topic rationally. So the person may discuss it with someone else, but not with that person...it may appear the person is closing the door, but in reality it's just with that person Giggle

Since we have the options to say we don't know or must wait until further evidence comes in, or that we don't really have a need to discuss it I would say that all makes sense to me. Yes flower
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 5:07 pm

Synchronicity wrote:
Joy wrote:
Let me put it this way and it will likely make what I am saying easier to swallow. There are some subjects where the two might decide the honest answer is "we don't know" or "we have no concrete evidence to form an irrefutable conclusion on this subject". In that case, each individual has choices. I thought of three, but there may be more.

1. They can set aside the subject, leave the door open until new evidence presents itself, but are basically able to live their life without an answer to that question.
2. They can close the door forever on this subject & refuse to address it again...however, this makes them no longer capable of intellectual honesty and ability to use reason, at least on this subject.
3. They can choose to embrace a possible conclusion and see where it leads them.

Sometimes the third choice will end unsatisfactorily and sometimes it will lead them to truth through personal experience or experimentation. If it takes place in a lab, it might even lead to a cure for cancer. Very Happy

Those options and your first statement do seem reasonable to me. I would say on the second one it may be simply that the person seriously dislikes discussing the subject or realizes the discussion will not go anywhere further with that person, so it may be a logical decision to refuse to discuss it. For instance, if the other person isn't able to discuss the topic rationally. So the person may discuss it with someone else, but not with that person...it may appear the person is closing the door, but in reality it's just with that person Giggle

Since we have the options to say we don't know or must wait until further evidence comes in, or that we don't really have a need to discuss it I would say that all makes sense to me. Yes flower

Coolio, Julio. Thumbup Very Happy Thumbup
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PostSubject: Somebody who knows vs. Somebody who thinks they know   Tue May 22, 2012 6:40 pm

Speaking from experience vs. reciting learned "facts"

A millionaire reveals that "trickle-down" doesn't work, won't work, and will never work. That's because rich people don't create jobs, he says.

Find out why:

The 1 Percent Solution
http://nationaljournal.com/features/restoration-calls/the-1-percent-solution-20120517

the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bBx2Y5HhplI&utm_source=PolicyMic+Newsletter&utm_campaign=8702c3dd93-New_Newsletter2_29_2012&utm_medium=email
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 9:03 pm

The Propagandist wrote:
Speaking from experience vs. reciting learned "facts"

A millionaire reveals that "trickle-down" doesn't work, won't work, and will never work. That's because rich people don't create jobs, he says.

Find out why:

The 1 Percent Solution
http://nationaljournal.com/features/restoration-calls/the-1-percent-solution-20120517

the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bBx2Y5HhplI&utm_source=PolicyMic+Newsletter&utm_campaign=8702c3dd93-New_Newsletter2_29_2012&utm_medium=email

Yes, good post. Really, that is the issue with intellectual honesty. Very few who have a lot to lose by seeing historical statistics that tells a different story than the one they are telling their constituents will do that. Can you imagine if Paul Ryan or John Boehner really looking at history, deciding this guy is right and saying, "You know, guys, we have concluded that trickle-down economics doesn't work, and therefore we are changing our economics platform because we honestly believe it is best for our country"? Even if they did change their minds their whole careers would be shot. Just using this as an example...it's hard sometimes. I know that when a person becomes president he finds out right away all that "they" won't allow him to do, and that he can't just pass whatever he thinks is right based on his own research and intellectual honesty. That can be a bad or good thing depending on who he is and who you ask, but it happens. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 11:42 pm

Problem with statistics is all how you use them.

As for Prop's article.
Quote :

That's because rich people don't create jobs, he says.


But within Hanauer’s own investment portfolio, his record is spotty. Some companies he’s backed, such as Amazon, have driven middle-class workers to unemployment. Pacific Feather Pillow, where Hanauer remains chairman of the board, recently closed plants in Illinois and Pennsylvania to cut costs. For all his money, Hanauer isn’t going out of his way to overpay workers or to create a bunch of extraneous jobs just to prop up the middle class that holds his future earnings in its hands.

After all, he’s not in it to lose. His fellow entrepreneurs and CEOs share this conflict, the tension between competitiveness today and sustainability long term.

He may say rich people don't create jobs, but they sure can cause people to lose them. While the article sounds convincing, Hanauer isn't going out of his way to help anybody. As I saw in another place, consumers don't create jobs, they validate the job. Someone buying a hamburger didn't create the job of the burger flipper. The burger flipper provided a service for the consumer. Had the burger flipper not been there, they would have gone some where else.
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Tue May 22, 2012 11:58 pm

Since we have already crashed back into politics, does any body think this looks familiar?

The Lost Decade - Japan's Economic Crisis


The economic miracle ended abruptly at the very start of the 1990s. In the late 1980s, abnormalities within the Japanese economic system had fuelled a massive wave of speculation by Japanese companies, banks and securities companies. Briefly, a combination of incredibly high land values and incredibly low interest rates led to a position in which credit was both easily available and extremely cheap. This led to massive borrowing, the proceeds of which were invested mostly in domestic and foreign stocks and securities.

Recognizing that this bubble was unsustainable (resting, as it did, on unrealizable land values - the loans were ultimately secured on land holdings), the Finance Ministry sharply raised interest rates. This popped the bubble in spectacular fashion, leading to a massive crash in the stock market. It also led to a debt crisis; a large proportion of the huge debts that had been run up turned bad, which in turn led to a crisis in the banking sector, with many banks having to be bailed out by the government.

Eventually, many become unsustainable, and a wave of consolidation took place (there are now only four national banks in Japan). Critically for the long-term economic situation, it meant many Japanese firms were lumbered with massive debts, affecting their ability for capital investment. It also meant credit became very difficult to obtain, due to the beleaguered situation of the banks; even now the official interest rate is at 0% and have been for several years, and despite this credit is still difficult to obtain.

Overall, this has led to the phenomenon known as the "lost decade"; economic expansion came to a total halt in Japan during the 1990s. The impact on everyday life has been rather muted, however. Unemployment runs reasonably high, but not at crisis levels (the official figure is a little under 5%, but this is a considerable underestimate - the real level is probably around twice that). This has combined with the traditional Japanese emphasis on frugality and saving (saving money is a cultural habit in Japan) to produce a quite limited impact on the average Japanese family, which continues much as it did in the period of the miracle.
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 12:18 am

But the point of intellectual honesty as I interpret it...the meaning of the term...would be in this case that it doesn't matter too much what one guy or another thinks particularly since we have statistics and numerical data to demonstrate the success of trickle-down economics. A person who honestly just wants the answer to whether this policy works or not can look at history and see what works and what doesn't. Now whether s/he chooses to espouse that point of view is another matter entirely.

Then the question is if we are intellectually honest, what do we do if the data doesn't show some "fact" we have always been told was true? I used to be Catholic and now I am not. I just don't see it as an intellectually or spiritually honest lifestyle for me, but I do respect that many do and that they feel strongly that it probably has as many reasons to be Christian or Catholic or pagan or whatever one believes as I do not to believe. What would I do if I were presented with evidence that seemed to prove that there is a God or what would a Christian do if there was evidence that proved to her/him there wasn't? We can't really firmly answer that on topics that define who we are unless we have to, but it is a thought. I think different people might make different choices, since people change religions and political parties fairly often.

I know that there is no way I would suddenly run back to the Catholic church if I got what I thought was proof there is God...I doubt I would change much in my life. Politically I I have idea what I would do if all the platform were proven totally factually wrong. Really it doesn't matter at this point and I am half asleep, so I am going to bed Giggle

I didn't see that guy's comments as related to him doing anything about the situation, but more a comment on who creates jobs. Yes, "rich guys" can create jobs, but they often take profits and stash them away instead. I would hire more staff in a heartbeat if we could afford it, but then again my goal isn't to have huge stashes of assets offshore or to pay myself millions of dollars instead of hiring. I think if there is enough demand to make creating or filling a job worth the money, consumers and smaller businesses do create jobs. I do agree the rich guys can fire people and crash a local economy for sure. Well, this time I am really off to bed and whatever I think isn't going to change much of anything anyway. Night! comet
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 12:37 pm

The problem with economics is that it is a social science heavily dependent on people's emotions and feelings. I think that is why there were no Nobel prizes for economics originally.

I think if there is enough demand to make creating or filling a job worth the money, consumers and smaller businesses do create jobs.

And there is the supply/demand idiom. Does the demand create the job or did the supply of the product create the demand? I think it has to be both and when government or anyone tries to make an artificial demand, it doesn't work.

Look at solar panels. They were pushed as the best thing since sliced bread. Money was invested in a product that had little demand. Operations cost were too high and the supply was low and overpriced. End result, fail of business. Now you can say that because of lower labor costs in other countries, it wasn't their fault that they failed. But that is why businesses succeed or fail. You have to have a product that is needed and you have to supply it at sufficient quantities and cost. If someone else is already doing that, don't go into that business. The dot com bust was full of bright eyed dreamers who all wanted a piece of the internet pie. When 100 people are all selling the same thing, 95 are going to fail. Artificially keeping those 95 in business is counterproductive and wasteful.
Business fail and restructure to create better products for less cost. That way the business creator earns a profit, the shareholders earn a profit and consumers benefit by being able to get the product quickly and cheaply. If the creator wants to keep making profits, then he expands or hires more people. If he has decided to just keep his profits and let the business die, then he will lose it and someone else will take over and fill the void.

I know Prop calls Laffer an idiot, but his Laffer curve does work and the invisible hand of Adam Smith is still what drives the market.

But, that is my opinion and all are entitled to their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 4:59 pm

Okay, I understand your point and to an extent I agree.

Butttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt........... Giggle

Seeweed posted a scenario on Tuscaloosa forums a few weeks ago concerning the "green" debacle that made a lot of sense to me.

He took the example of the space program and if we applied the current mindset regarding green technology to it, then, it would be a wasteful and non-productive venture on the part of our government. Today we see great benefits from the technology developed during the space program. One could even say that as a result, our overall lives have been improved.



Agreed?

If so, and taking that into consideration, can we extend that thought to the assistance that "green" technology is receiving from the government now? Will we be able to see changes that ultimately improve our lives come from that assistance?

Personally, I have been researching the cost of installing solar panels at the cabin. I have seen that:

a.) The cost of power generated by the grid is increasing
b.) The cost of solar power is lowering rapidly due to lower production cost and improved quality.

Our area will not reach the stagnant point as fast as other areas of the country thanks to TVA, but if I lived somewhere else...................

SIDEBAR: Factored into the equation that the City of Florence would charge me about $7,000.00 to run the lines to the cabin and it became a "no brainer" for me.

Now then, why shouldn't private enterprise jump in and take the bull by the horns? Profits, Profits, Profits.

I believe that everyone would agree that there is a high cost associated with the development and deployment of "new green technology. Coupled with an overwhelming mindset that our current grid is sufficient, so why bother? The topic of another conversation all together. Wink

Remember we are far removed from Edison and Westinghouse deploying the light bulb and power grid. An undertaking of this size is enormous in financial burdens. So our government is taking the lead.........and the bulk of the strain.

So where are we now. Again, production cost has fallen. From the first research, other technologies are coming to market and California is building a massive solar powered base in the Arizona desert. Popular Mechanics has had several articles recently on this subject and I'll try to find them and link the for the start of another topic.

I digress, I know. The point that I am trying to get across is that our system has grown to a gargantuan size and deployment of some (but by no means all) technologies require Federal assistance. How do we choose? Simply, greater good for mankind. Who's in charge of making that choice..........Well, being pure at heart and innocent of nature......and stuff, I reluctantly volunteer. Wink

Now........BIGGER question. Why are we having this discussion in health & fitness on a topic concerning the Zen Masters???????

For Shame For Shame

Ustink

Giggle
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 5:03 pm

Waiting for the morph to occur............

I love it when that happens

Crackingup Crackingup Crackingup Crackingup
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 5:16 pm

I agree that green energy is a perfect fit for government support and feel and think that it is essential to seriously work on transitioning off oil and similar energy sources. If I had a bit of resources my house would have solar power and if there were a loan program that I would qualify for they would already be installed.

The reality is that any steps toward green energy, green jobs, and regulations that can help our country move toward green energy will be and have been fought with all the money and clout that present energy suppliers and resource owners can bring to bear. I don't have lobbyists who can threaten, cajole, and buy off legislators, and I personally can't get laws passed that actually would support and encourage clean energy development. This is how I see it different than space exploration...the money is in preventing it from what they see and not from developing it. Too bad we will all suffer from the greed and short-sightedness, but reality.

Prop, I would say you are right in the analogy to space exploration. We could become leaders in this field and put our best minds to work to bring the cost down and efficiency up, but instead leaders are bombarded by lobbyists and donors to prevent wonderful discoveries and inventions from coming to light and making them inexpensive enough for everyone or most to benefit from. There are huge profits to be made here, but instead the whole field is kept literally in the dark. Who knows what medical equipment and procedures aren't being discovered, what new ways to house and feed people aren't being brought to starving areas of the world...who knows what else?

Those who think our electric grid is all safe and strong aren't seeing the whole picture, and we have seen what can happen with nuclear plants and oil exploration. the possibilities are amazing, but as long as people think government is evil and should be tiny or gone and as long as powerful lobbies and secret money can buy legislators' votes and basically run the country this won't happen. We wouldn't have gone into space and had so many amazing and useful discoveries come about if the same outlook and big money had been put to work to prevent it that is used in the energy field. Sad to see, and one day it will be too late and we will be at the back end of the line scrambling in emergencies.
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 5:21 pm

Just to clarify, I think private businesses should be getting into this as well, and if there were better incentives and support they might do more. I am not saying government should do it all.
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 8:56 pm

morph baby morph ......... Giggle
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 9:03 pm

I'm morphing as we speak. I am turning myself into a newt!!! yay
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 9:11 pm

Ubu wrote:

Now........BIGGER question. Why are we having this discussion in health & fitness on a topic concerning the Zen Masters???????

For Shame For Shame

Ustink

Giggle

Zen in action. The conversation will lead where it is meant to lead, not necessarily where you might have been taught that it should lead or where logic might suggest.

Don't miss the beauty of the mountains because you are concentrating on that bug that just landed on your nose.


Quote :
Logic is a vicious circle. And Zen makes every
effort to bring you out of that vicious circle.

How is logic a vicious circle? The premise already has the conclusion in it. The
conclusion is not going to be something new, it is contained in the premise. And then in
the conclusion the premise is contained. It is like a seed: the tree is contained in the seed
and then the tree will give birth to many more seeds and in those seeds trees will be
contained. It is a vicious circle: seed, tree, seed. It goes on. Or, egg, hen, egg, hen, egg...
it goes on ad infinitum. It is a circle.

To break out of this circle is what Zen is all about -- not to go on moving in your mind
through words and concepts but to drop into existence itself.

Zen: The Path of Paradox, Vol 1
Talks on Zen, p. 5
http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Beloved_Osho_Books/Zen/Zen_The_Path_of_Paradox_Vol_1.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 9:15 pm

Nice once again, Prop. Zen is...well....zen. "nuff said Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 9:19 pm

Synchronicity wrote:
I'm morphing as we speak. I am turning myself into a newt!!! yay




Gingrich???????????? Why??????????????? Giggle
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 9:25 pm

Duh ........ To experience total failure. what else?

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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 9:30 pm

The Propagandist wrote:
Ubu wrote:

Now........BIGGER question. Why are we having this discussion in health & fitness on a topic concerning the Zen Masters???????

For Shame For Shame

Ustink

Giggle

Zen in action. The conversation will lead where it is meant to lead, not necessarily where you might have been taught that it should lead or where logic might suggest.



Don't miss the beauty of the mountains because you are concentrating on that bug that just landed on your nose.


Quote :
Logic is a vicious circle. And Zen makes every
effort to bring you out of that vicious circle.

How is logic a vicious circle? The premise already has the conclusion in it. The
conclusion is not going to be something new, it is contained in the premise. And then in
the conclusion the premise is contained. It is like a seed: the tree is contained in the seed
and then the tree will give birth to many more seeds and in those seeds trees will be
contained. It is a vicious circle: seed, tree, seed. It goes on. Or, egg, hen, egg, hen, egg...
it goes on ad infinitum. It is a circle.

To break out of this circle is what Zen is all about -- not to go on moving in your mind
through words and concepts but to drop into existence itself.

Zen: The Path of Paradox, Vol 1
Talks on Zen, p. 5
http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Beloved_Osho_Books/Zen/Zen_The_Path_of_Paradox_Vol_1.pdf

Hay, you just validated every hijacked thread that I have done!

Thanks!
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Ubu
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Wed May 23, 2012 9:33 pm

Crap, posting from this iPad sucks. Half of my post didn't come through?

With that said, I am out of here tonight.....

Cya tomorrow
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Synchronicity
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PostSubject: Re: Zen masters use this kōan practice...   Thu May 24, 2012 12:19 am

Bluetick wrote:
Synchronicity wrote:
I'm morphing as we speak. I am turning myself into a newt!!! yay




Gingrich???????????? Why??????????????? Giggle

affraid affraid affraid No!! Not that newt...a real newt...the pretty kind, of course anime
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